Riding a wave

[CheerBear]

I am a bit stuck on this one too @Phoenix_Rising, but I hadn't really considered it until conversations here. I have felt a pang when I have read it though.

I've had a quick read while I have also been reading along at TT. I am wondering if perhaps it might be helpful to think of the difference between persuasion and manipulation. The difference here apparently is in transparency, intent (of the person who is giving the message) and consequences/impact (for the person who is receiving the message). 

I write this with a big perhaps, because I don't actually know myself and am currently stuck in grey, pondering this. I absolutely completely understand how help-seeking being deemed as manipulation (which carries far more negative connotations) would be very hard to hear/read.

[Shaz51]

I agree @CheerBear 

But i am going to have a read about the differences @Phoenix_Rising

[Zoe7]

@Phoenix_Rising I am going to try to explain - from my point of view - what the difference is.

Manipulation is intentional behaviour that one uses in order to elicit a response that they seek. The person doing the 'manipulating' is therefore very aware of what they want the outcome to be and will 'tweak' their own behaviour in order to get the response they seek - whether that be positive or negative.

Help-seeking behaviour is similar but the person seeking help cannot always see how their behaviour will impact others. Help-seeking behaviour is often more linear.

Manipulation is more like a spiderweb (more complicated patterns of behaviour that although seen in isolation may seem like help-seeking behaviour - combined in a complex set of behaviours becomes manipulation).

I am sure this is as clear as mud and just adds to your muddle little turtle - sorry if that is the case!

[CheerBear]

@Phoenix_Rising - I'm going to write my thoughts after thinking this through a bit more before I forget them.

Going by what I wrote above, unless a person is being deliberately deceptive with the intention of gaining something for themselves at the cost of hurting another person (which I think would be considered manipulation), then I think it is persuasion. Perhaps help-seeking can fall into either being persuasive or manipulative depending on what the help-seeking specifically involves. It would be a case-by-case thing this way.

If help-seeking is deemed manipulative, when in fact it is persuasive, that's when we have all kinds of potential for problems.

Just another thought. I'm not sure what I actually believe yet.

[CheerBear]

I'm so tired @Phoenix_Rising and falling asleep. My big day, even though it went well, has taken it out of me so I am heading to bed. I wanted to say again that I think you did really well tonight and I understand how tricky some of that might have been.

Good night Phoenix_Rising. I hope you snuggle cosily tonight.

[Phoenix_Rising]

@CheerBear My brain is going to explode - I hope that doesn't make too much mess in your pocket. I am super glad I can snuggle in your pocket. Happy Wednesday eve @CheerBear. Tomorrow is super exciting Wednesday. I hope you sleep peacefully tonight. You DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phoenix_Rising]

@CheerBear @Zoe7 @Shaz51 I am sooooooo tired and sooooooo muddled. I will have to take some time to process your thoughts on the manipulation vs help-seeking muddle. I really think @NikNik is right. I like the fact that you are as muddled as me @CheerBear.

All I know right now is that I have spent my whole adult life being told I'm demanding and manipulative and utterly selfish and difficult and annoying and exhausting to be with and scary. Oh and apparently on Sunday I was also disrespectful and offensive.

@Zoe7 I am so super glad you have made it through tricky Tuesday. You did it! You're awesome!!!!

@Former-Member who is watching over the ocean? I am superly duperly struggling. Today has been an amazingly challenging day. However it is nearly done now, and tomorrow is nearly here. Yay for not living on Venus!

Night Forum Land. Super big thank you for being you @NikNik.

[Zoe7]

If that was you being disrespectful and offensive then I wouldn't have you any other way little turtle - honest and straightforward - that's the @Phoenix_Rising I super like 

Goodnight little turtle - we all got through the day @CheerBear @Phoenix_Rising 

Tomorrow (secretly away from CB) I am going to call What's the point Wednesday - see if that catches on lol

[Former-Member]

Hi @Phoenix_Rising

It Arie here, Im around for the next couple of hours. I hear you have had a tough day, take time to rest your body and your mind @Phoenix_Rising, the forum will be here as you need

[Phoenix_Rising]

Good morning @Zoe7 and @CheerBear,

So...my brain is still cooked and thus I haven't read through your thoughts on the manipulation muddle out here on the ocean. I have however gone back to the DBT treatment manual and found where Linehan discusses this issue. I am thinking that I would like to put this up on the DBT thread in place of the post I had planned to put there today. This issue of whether or not people with BPD are manipulative definitely fits within our introduction to DBT and I don't see it as an issue if we get "sidetracked" on the topic for a few days. However, I'm also mindful that you might be super busting exploding to get to the actual doing DBT bit @CheerBear. What do you think? If I post this except from the treatment manual, it might super help unmuddle our muddle, but it will mean delaying the getting to the skills bit. What are your thoughts (if any) about it @Zoe7 and @CheerBear???